The Daily Honky Tonk 192nd Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
192nd Edition
August 3, 2010
4:15 AM

I’m not sure why I am not sleepy. I’m just not. I’m not stressed. I’m not worried. I’ve been thinking a lot but the good productive type of thinking that I enjoy. So, while my ideas seem to be coming together I’ll get them out. There are only two things in this DHT. The Letters to the Editor I am sure make up a good five or six pages printed out. I have no clue how long it will take me to get what I what in my Independence Rethought article.

Independence Rethought
I hope that I can come at this topic now with a better angle seeing that I’m not so upset anymore. I’ve taken time to try and get at the root of what really bothered me about this topic rather than trying to attack at any and every random angle. I am not putting individual replies to each of the Letters to the Editor, I am hoping to rather reply to all in the form of a new rethought article about independence.
If you’ve read the DHT then you know that I agree with each of these fine women who say it is important to be equal. Being equal intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. is very important. My favorite article on that was an essay by Marry Wollstonecraft before the feminist movement even began.
I found that most of the women who quote the article refer to two different parts. The ice queen quote, and the I don’t know that you could protect me part. The most important agreeing line was that girls want the opportunity to be treated as an equal.

Briana said “I don't want a servant, nor do I want a tyrant. I want a partner. I want someone who can be my equal intellectually, mentally, spiritually, etc.

Ada said- “women don't necessarily want to be equal to men they just want the opportunity to be equal.”

Nikki said- “A woman who is or wants to be independent isn't someone to be angry at, but rather someone to love and respect the same as anyone else.”

I think what most set me off was the frustration that I want girls who I can feel equal to in intellectually, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, I’ll even throw in physically here and that list could go on. However, I’m going to take two words from the article that I think the independent women here have identified with that seems to go against that and those words are “Ice Queen”.
I think what set me off is that an Ice Queen in my mind is not independent. Ice Queen by my definition is a female beginning to embody the weak part of the male- the inability to be sensitive to others emotions and to recognize when their own are out of control. I don’t consider that independent. I consider that selfish and immature. I wish the term Ice Queen wouldn’t be associated with Independence. I think Ice Queen is a closed person, not an independent person. Maybe my issue isn’t with independence, but with the closed nature that some people associate with independence.
What do I mean closed? Well, I look for independent women because I think they can keep up with me. They know how to deal with their own issues, they have strong opinions, and they know how to get things done. If someone is opinionated and can get things done then I suspect them to understand very well emotions, things intellectual, and things spiritual. But when a person is closed to expressing those things- when someone is an ice queen they keep things inside and then they can’t prove to me that they are really equal. I can’t feel someone is equal if they close themselves off. If you can’t articulate opinions, feelings, things intellectual, things spiritual then I can’t expect someone who is independent to keep up with me because I articulate, a lot. If I am asked to find a girl who is equal with me in those things then she can’t keep them in. Nor could the girl discover if the guy is equal to her if he keeps it in. Being an Ice Queen seems to me a wall that prevents the girl from proving what she has to offer. If a girl is ambitious and assertive I think I should hear it in her talk. Two people suggest reasons in their comments to me why independent girls seem to close up and be ice queens.
1) Cara said- “Being independent is safer- then no one can hurt you. It takes a lot of trust and self confidence to let someone else not only see your weaknesses, but to let them see that you need them. Something that I've learned about myself recently is that I am not good at needing people. It scares me to need others, to rely on someone other than myself. And it's hard to make the transition from relying mostly on myself to letting myself rely on someone else. It takes time- and practice- to learn to let myself have that trust in others. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to need others. It just means that I'm still learning how. And maybe that's just me, but I think a lot of 'independent' people are just people who aren't ready to rely on others, don't realize that they're shutting others out, or aren't quite sure how to need others.”
In response to this, I see no problem with revealing my weaknesses and my struggles to people and still feeling independent. People can share their opinions, can offer suggestions how to deal with something, they can offer their help, but I still feel completely free to make my own decision. I don’t feel letting people in limits me from doing things my own way. It just helps me to become informed as to whether I would like to independently change my way. Ice Queen has this association to me of not being able to open up and rely on somebody else. Reliance is in my mind a show of someone’s real independence, a real show that they have grown up and can do things on their own. Someone who is independent can open themselves up without feeling like they will be changed or that they lose any part of themselves by revealing what’s on the inside. Opening up all the time doesn’t take away from my ability to make my choices all the time. And, I really liked the comment here that we all need others. We can need others without being dependent on them. Dependent would indicate that most of the time we can’t do things for ourselves. Independent people should in my mind be able to do things for themselves but recognize at the same time that they aren’t above having needs and need others. The idea of ice queen in my head is someone who says “Screw the world, I don’t need other people”.
Samuel and I were talking about a scene in Finding Neverland when Johnny Depp makes the comment that the oldest son who is supposed to be somewhere between 9 and 11 has changed from a boy to a man. Why? Because its the first time he starts to see and care about things outside himself (specifically his mother’s condition). He starts to realize that he isn’t just responsible for himself, but that he is also responsible for being aware of the feelings and experiences of others and that those can and should influence how he acts. The idea of Ice Queen, at least my perspective of it, is that it promotes a girl, if only in rhetoric, a girl who during the day doesn’t have to care or be influenced by what others experience. It is important that we aren’t always reacting to people. But the Ice Queen seems to be the other extreme . . . Which is the part that I consider a weakness in guys. When I talked about women becoming like men, I think sometimes independent women start thinking they have to lean towards this Ice Queen who is like that stoic man who doesn’t seem to care about other people.
Granted, there are leaders and business people who go very far by pushing people out of the way and ignoring them and how they feel. And some of them go far without as much work. However, as I talked about last time, I think really great people and leaders are independent people who can still take into account what those around them feel and experience. That takes a lot of work to include other people in our lives. It requires someone who is a lot stronger and more confident in their own values and beliefs. They don’t always get things as fast as some who would do it the other way. But if they should ever fall from their height, they aren’t mocked on the way back down the ladder of life . .. They are respected while those who got there through their icy steel determination seem to get what they deserve.

2)Belen said - “It's not always "the inability to express ourselves" - we often know what we want to say, but we (at least, how it often is with me) aren't so sure you want to hear it, or even care at all. Women are emotional (to varying degrees, depending on the woman) and nobody likes feeling hurt. And when we feel that our emotions/feelings are disregarded, it hurts - that's why communication is so important.”
A short simple comment. If the person doesn’t want to hear it or doesn’t care about what you think or feel or experience or have opinions about, then I don’t think they are equal to you. Nobody likes to be hurt . . . True. But if you keep it inside you can’t find whether they are equal to you. You can’t find out whether they care as much as you, or will be as sensitive as you would, or whether they would fight with the same vigor and vim as you would.

So, I’m going to close giving my ideal definition of the person male or female who is independent:
You are an independent person if you can stand alone intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally. This doesn’t not mean that you have everything together, but that in general you can spend more of your life taking care of what you have to without turning to others. When you really need something you are independent enough to recognize and decide of your own free will to turn to others and you rely on them. Reliance is an act you do on your own. Relying on another person requires the other person to be their, but it depends mostly on you. Independent people are aware of other peoples thoughts and emotions and can factor them into what they are doing (and even help the other person succeed at what they want) while still doing what is ultimately right for their life. Independent people are assertive and ambitious. They do whatever it takes, including relying on other people and trusting them to get what they want. One of my favorite leadership quotes says “Nobody has enough time or resources to get everything they want done .. .to be a good leader you have to learn to let other people do things for you even imperfectly”. You limit your potential when you can’t include other people. Independent people take time to think about things, they form opinions, and they can express them. Your opinion, thoughts, feelings mean little if it can’t be articulated to others. Nor can you be fully assertive and get what you want if you can’t effectively communicate them. Independent people prepare themselves for all possibilities and have plans. Independent people get an education and value it and use it in many ways to bless other people. Independent people know how to manage a house, to be organized in their life, they control their budget, and avoid debt and they can articulately explain how they do that to benefit others who struggle to do the same. Independent people can handle their emotions without letting them get in the way of normal life. Ice Queens also says someone to me that puts off a poor attitude- Independent can have a good attitude and treat others kindly even when they are angry, upset, stressed, or experiencing whatever emotional trauma. Independent people are people who are so strong that they can focus on others and care about and bless their lives no matter what is going on in theirs. That is in my mind the number one strength. People become independent as they arrive at the point that they forget themselves and focus on others. Thus comes the common and very wise phrase that a good relationship is made up of two whole people rather than two halves.
These are my ideals for independence. They are what I expect out of myself. They are what I expect out of other people who claim to be independent male or female. But they are ideals, principles and goals worked for, not necessarily applied perfectly.
P.s. If you know some nice female who can keep up with my personal definition of independence then please send her my way, I haven’t found a girl who fits this definition. Or if you can articulate to me what I am looking at wrong so I would recognize that girl instead of wondering if one actually exists.
P.p.s. I value independent girls who will fight for what they want and what they believe because that’s what I do in the DHT. I know they will let me go toe to toe with them. I’ve been told that I seem like the type who would want a quiet really nice girl . ..trust me when I say they wouldn’t be good for me. They are sweet and good, but when someone is quiet and won’t go toe to toe with me I worry that one day I will really hurt them. . .because I do fight for what I want and what I believe. If people don’t match it .. .well, I’m rather frank with them and will fight for it. Independent people can take that. The really sweet quiet type, well, it may be a wrong judgment, but I worry about hurting them or destroying their sweet nature with my skepticism of life and people. Secondly, quiet is never a good idea for me. That’s why I consider being articulate so important. If someone is quiet, I don’t know if there is any depth to them. I often fight people to open up to prove they have the depth of person equal to mine. When people don’t open up I’m left wondering whether it’s because they don’t trust me or whether there just isn’t any more depth to them than what I am getting. Independent people I hope aren’t shallow, but if they don’t open up then I am left to wonder what wall do I need to break or is there nothing more to this person.


Letters to the Editor
Mark,

The whole bit about wanting to "be the ice queen by day, and put on fuzzy pink slippers and cuddle by night" is SO me.

For me, the whole, "If you see us as independent, get ready to step it up and be more of a man. If you're not willing to do that, then find someone else. We can protect ourselves during the day. It's at night when we just want to be our vulnerable damsels in distress. There's nothing worse than a man who is afraid to infringe upon our "independence" and be firm and commanding and protecting because he's scarred he'll offend us. When he does this ( and trust me, we can always tell) we're usually thinking "you're not strong enough to keep up with me. I don't feel like you could provide for or protect me so you better find someone a little more insecure with themselves who you won't be intimidated by." thing is dead on. I like it when a guy challenges my thoughts or feelings, but I also like it when he is sweet and chivalrous.

The way I see it, I don't want a servant, nor do I want a tyrant. I want a partner. I want someone who can be my equal intellectually, mentally, spiritually, etc. Seriously though, when I'm with a guy who will back off in a fight because I'm "independent" I'm like, "well, you can't hold your own against me, so you can't hold your own against the world, therefore, you can't defend me when I need you. Goodbye."

Do I still need someone to hold me at night? Yes. Do I still need someone to send me roses for no reason at all? Yes. But I also need a man who can fight for what he believes in, even if that means fighting me. Don't disable me because I'm a woman, but don't empower me because I'm a woman.

Does this help? I don't know...I'm tired myself. :)

Briana

whoa whoa whoa
"An independent woman complains that she feels like a male? You’ve stepped into the shoes of a male, now you get treated like a male, its completely logical to a male(but women are emotional and that would be illogical to them :) )"

Because we tend to be assertive and ambitious and independent we've stepped into the shoes of a male? You want to think about YOUR logic right there? Apparently I can't be assertive and ambitious without becoming a male, because no real woman would be assertive and ambitious because that's a mans job. We'll just sit quietly in our parlor in pink frilly dresses thinking about laundry detergent and garden parties.

Natalie



I wanted to put this as a comment to your blog, but you took the link down, so I guess I'll send it this way.
I think a big part of independence in realtionships comes from a lack of trust. Being independent is safer- then no one can hurt you. It takes a lot of trust and self confidence to let someone else not only see your weaknesses, but to let them see that you need them. Something that I've learned about myself recently is that I am not good at needing people. It scares me to need others, to rely on someone other than myself. And it's hard to make the transition from relying mostly on myself to letting myself rely on someone else. It takes time- and practice- to learn to let myself have that trust in others. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to need others. It just means that I'm still learning how. And maybe that's just me, but I think a lot of 'independent' people are just people who aren't ready to rely on others, don't realize that they're shutting others out, or aren't quite sure how to need others.
Cara

Hey Mark,

My boys are asleep so I'm taking a chance to at least attempt an email. I read the latest DHT and have been thinking about it, hopefully enough to give a coherent response. It's very true that most women struggle to communicate effectively with men, especially in personal relationships. Many times I've become frustrated or been the source of frustration because of my own lack of effective communication. Ah, if we could just read each others minds and intents, then we'd be spared so many arguments. I've found in my marriage that there are instances when I had assumed that John understood me, when he had no idea. For example, there have been times when I'm struggling to get the boys ready for church and I've wanted some help, but got none because I didn't ask specifically for help. In the meantime I'd be getting angrier by the minute because I'd think that he's being deliberately lazy, when he was simply not aware of what was going on. But I wouldn't discover this until after I'd started yelling at him over something unrelated later on. Dumb. I will also say that when dating, I always let a guy know when the time came that I was happy for him to open doors, get chairs, etc. for me if he felt so inspired. If I had been on a date with a particular guy a few times, then I'd usually tell him that he was not required to do those things anymore. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever let John get my car door, mostly because I'd get sick of waiting in the car while he walked around to get the door :]. I had a professor who relayed to us, something his wife said to him, something like -- women don't necessarily want to be equal to men they just want the opportunity to be equal.

It also occurs to me that sometimes communication problems arise when we have certain expectations about how a certain situation should play out, or how another person should behave. These expectations can come from prior experiences, media, or from others experiences. For example, a young woman might expect for her date to open doors, etc. because her father always did that for her mother, but he doesn't because he never seen his father do that for his mother, or he's afraid offending her somehow if she doesn't expect him to do that. I've found that I have to tell John my expectations, so I can have the outcome I desire. Sometimes either he or I have had expectations that we didn't realize we had until after we've argued/discussed heatedly :]. I'd say more, but I've got two crying boys that need my attention.

Sincerely,
Ada

PS -- The book, First Comes Love by David (?) Brinley has a great chapter about communication.

For me, a lot (maybe even most) of the guys I have met seem to be intimidated by the very fact that I do know what I want and am not afraid to say so - I am not always outspoken, but can be and they seem to be offended by it (which is why I'm not always outspoken). I have met a few guys that respect that and are my friends because I am more independent, but the rest are put off and keep their distance.
One thing I've noticed pretty consistently in the ones that are "put off" is that they want girls that will flirt and carry on because they aren't so sure about themselves, being mostly ego with little to no confidence - occasionally, they're just shy and/or socially awkward, but are usually the former.
As for the "not being able to keep up with me" - I am harder to keep up with, I've set a higher standard for myself and want/expect others to do the same. I ask more of people. However, people in general (guys and girls) prefer the path of least resistance, relationships that are easy, someone they don't have to "keep up with".
I know what I want, I set my sights high and go for it - but I'm not a loner, I want friends (and eventually a man) that will keep up with me. I say will because, in reality, everyone does have the potential, everyone could keep up with me, they simply don't want to - they prefer the easy stroll or the short jog to the hard, long run. But when we get to where we're going, I (and my man ;) will be the ones in top form (hehehe!).
What needs to be kept in mind is that while we can be masculine to varying degrees, we can never be completely masculine - we are missing the Y chromosome, after all. We wear our "man boots" for most of the day, but we still want a pair of strong, caring arms to wrap around us when we're at home, and no matter what anyone may say, do, or act like, we're still females - yeah, we're confusing, we're frustrating, and we drive you insane trying to "figure us out", but we don't mean to (at least, most of us don't, though occasionally we may play hob when we've had a bad day or a particularly bad [and recent] experience with those of the male species and we gnash our teeth at every one in sight).
Understanding is crucial - cultivate it! When you're baffled and/or irritated it is often best to remain quiet and hope it will make sense later (not that it always will, but hey, guys don't always make sense to us either :P )

Being interested in psychology, it seems to me that (at least a part) of the reason you're irritated is that you feel that you do step it up and that you are strong enough, and so someone implying that you aren't... well, it sets you off.
My experience is that a lot of guys nowadays (being unsure of what to think of the independent female) aren't so sure about taking the lead. I've seen it in conversation, dancing, working, etc., and those are the ones that need to "step it up."
I also think that whoever was writing about being "on a date with a guy who observes my ambition and assertiveness, gives me the title of 'independent woman' and then proceeds to treat me like some powerhouse CEO who's only interested in business and a very businesslike relationship" should consider the fact that maybe she's misinterpreting something - maybe the guy is showing respect. After all (from what I understand), isn't that how guys show respect for each other? If she only goes on one date with the guy, labels him as "stupid, ignorant, and not worth my time", how can she ever know what he really thinks of her?
As for those princesses that give off an "I don't need your help" vibe, they are often frustrated and often feel like men think they are weak and inferior, so they then refuse help because they feel a need to prove that they are just as strong, thus proving (to themselves as well as the men) that they are not weak and inferior. We want to be respected as equals, not disregarded or coddled as inferiors.
However, it is in our nature to curl up next to someone, (kind of like how a cat, after being aloof, distant and off on its own all day jumps into your lap, purring and looking forward to curling up and relaxing for a while) and when we don't have that, it tends put us out of balance (often resulting in more of the "I don't need you" vibe).
Lastly (wow, this keeps on getting longer and longer...) I think you've hit upon a point that a lot of people overlook in relationships: "If you want to tell your girlfriends how annoying it is that your guy doesn’t give you what you want. ..then you’re stupid because you are complaining to the people who can’t give you what you want." Girls (from people I just met to people I've known for years) talk to me all the time about how some guy isn't shaping up, or something about the guy is bothering them, but they don't tell the guy, and if the guy doesn't know, how is he supposed to do anything about it? I may have done it without realizing it, but I try to let the guy know (not having done any dating to speak of, I still let my guyfriends know what I think of them, both negative and positive).
But guys have also discussed how much they like me, would like to go on a date with me, etc. with my best friends, which drives me up the wall because they refuse to talk to me about furthering a relationship with me - it's not as if telling my friend all about it will change anything. If they want anything to do with me they need to talk to me! And every guy that has tried to talk to me about how much they like some other girl, would like to date her, etc., I have told to talk to that girl about it - I know they're worried, but telling me won't change a thing.


I feel like I'm not quite getting across everything I mean, but hopefully some of it makes sense,
Belen (:

PS. It's not always "the inability to express ourselves" - we often know what we want to say, but we (at least, how it often is with me) aren't so sure you want to hear it, or even care at all. Women are emotional (to varying degrees, depending on the woman) and nobody likes feeling hurt. And when we feel that our emotions/feelings are disregarded, it hurts - that's why communication is so important.
Just keep communicating!
And don't forget the positive when frustrated with the negative ;)

Mark-
I'd like to give you my personal opinion on what being an independent woman means to me. First, a little background: When I first got married, I was 19. I had graduated high school a year earlier, hadn't been to college, and was barely scraping by with a minimum wage job. I already had one daughter, and after I got married, my husband and I soon had another daughter. Daycare was too expensive for me, only having a high school diploma hindered my ability to get a higher paying job, and I didn't like the idea of other people taking care of my children (I knew what I wanted for them, and wasn't confident a daycare could provide that), so I stayed at home while my husband worked. Our family relied totally on my husband financially. If I wanted to buy something for myself or my children that was out of the normal range of paying bills or buying groceries, I had to ask for the money to do it. When my husband became emotionally and eventually physically abusive toward me, I felt helpless to change the situation. If I left, how was I supposed to provide for myself and my children? We were completely dependent on my husband. Eventually I felt it was too dangerous for myself and my children to stay with him, and so I moved to another state with my mom. She helped me get on my feet- taking care of my children while I worked, and giving us a place to stay. Eventually I met someone else who cared deeply for myself and my children, and we moved in with him. We love each other very much, and while he is more than willing and able to provide for us, I still felt dependent on him. So I made the decision to become more self-sufficient, and I went back to school. I know now that I will never feel like I am "stuck" or helpless again in the way that I did before. My partner is more than happy with my decision- my confidence has gone up considerably, and it makes me very happy to be efficient in my OWN field of specialty! I feel like we are on more equal footing now, and that has improved our relationship in its own way. He still treats me and my children the same way, with love, respect, and kindness (and he's more than happy to play the role of a "man" and say, change the oil in my car- even though I know how to, and I'm more than happy to LET him). Some things I would rather do myself, but we always consult one another and bounce ideas back and forth, and we are constantly communicating our needs and wants to one another. I am confident that I won't NEED to provide for myself and my children in the future, but knowing that I COULD helps me to be a happier more confident person. I don't feel like I'm the lesser half, and I don't know if I can express how good it feels to not have to ask for money to buy a book or some new clothes (even though he's more than willing to give it to me, and often gives me things he knows I want). So for me, being an independent woman doesn't mean I want to be a "man", and I certainly don't complain when he offers to wash my car for me or changes the lightbulbs I can't reach! I'm glad to be a woman, glad to be a mother, glad to be loved and doted on, but I make sure that my partner and children are also loved and doted on. As far as being put on a pedestal, count me out! I'm only human like everyone else. I hold those I love to high standards because I know they can live up to them, and they do the same for me, but we should all be careful not to make them so high that when the pedestal topples, we can't catch ourselves and the ones we love.
So that's my tangent, hopefully that gives you more insight into another point of view. A woman who is or wants to be independent isn't someone to be angry at, but rather someone to love and respect the same as anyone else. We all need to feel important, and we all want to be loved.

Nikki


The Editor,
Mark