The Daily Honky Tonk 192nd Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
192nd Edition
August 3, 2010
4:15 AM

I’m not sure why I am not sleepy. I’m just not. I’m not stressed. I’m not worried. I’ve been thinking a lot but the good productive type of thinking that I enjoy. So, while my ideas seem to be coming together I’ll get them out. There are only two things in this DHT. The Letters to the Editor I am sure make up a good five or six pages printed out. I have no clue how long it will take me to get what I what in my Independence Rethought article.

Independence Rethought
I hope that I can come at this topic now with a better angle seeing that I’m not so upset anymore. I’ve taken time to try and get at the root of what really bothered me about this topic rather than trying to attack at any and every random angle. I am not putting individual replies to each of the Letters to the Editor, I am hoping to rather reply to all in the form of a new rethought article about independence.
If you’ve read the DHT then you know that I agree with each of these fine women who say it is important to be equal. Being equal intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, etc. is very important. My favorite article on that was an essay by Marry Wollstonecraft before the feminist movement even began.
I found that most of the women who quote the article refer to two different parts. The ice queen quote, and the I don’t know that you could protect me part. The most important agreeing line was that girls want the opportunity to be treated as an equal.

Briana said “I don't want a servant, nor do I want a tyrant. I want a partner. I want someone who can be my equal intellectually, mentally, spiritually, etc.

Ada said- “women don't necessarily want to be equal to men they just want the opportunity to be equal.”

Nikki said- “A woman who is or wants to be independent isn't someone to be angry at, but rather someone to love and respect the same as anyone else.”

I think what most set me off was the frustration that I want girls who I can feel equal to in intellectually, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, I’ll even throw in physically here and that list could go on. However, I’m going to take two words from the article that I think the independent women here have identified with that seems to go against that and those words are “Ice Queen”.
I think what set me off is that an Ice Queen in my mind is not independent. Ice Queen by my definition is a female beginning to embody the weak part of the male- the inability to be sensitive to others emotions and to recognize when their own are out of control. I don’t consider that independent. I consider that selfish and immature. I wish the term Ice Queen wouldn’t be associated with Independence. I think Ice Queen is a closed person, not an independent person. Maybe my issue isn’t with independence, but with the closed nature that some people associate with independence.
What do I mean closed? Well, I look for independent women because I think they can keep up with me. They know how to deal with their own issues, they have strong opinions, and they know how to get things done. If someone is opinionated and can get things done then I suspect them to understand very well emotions, things intellectual, and things spiritual. But when a person is closed to expressing those things- when someone is an ice queen they keep things inside and then they can’t prove to me that they are really equal. I can’t feel someone is equal if they close themselves off. If you can’t articulate opinions, feelings, things intellectual, things spiritual then I can’t expect someone who is independent to keep up with me because I articulate, a lot. If I am asked to find a girl who is equal with me in those things then she can’t keep them in. Nor could the girl discover if the guy is equal to her if he keeps it in. Being an Ice Queen seems to me a wall that prevents the girl from proving what she has to offer. If a girl is ambitious and assertive I think I should hear it in her talk. Two people suggest reasons in their comments to me why independent girls seem to close up and be ice queens.
1) Cara said- “Being independent is safer- then no one can hurt you. It takes a lot of trust and self confidence to let someone else not only see your weaknesses, but to let them see that you need them. Something that I've learned about myself recently is that I am not good at needing people. It scares me to need others, to rely on someone other than myself. And it's hard to make the transition from relying mostly on myself to letting myself rely on someone else. It takes time- and practice- to learn to let myself have that trust in others. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to need others. It just means that I'm still learning how. And maybe that's just me, but I think a lot of 'independent' people are just people who aren't ready to rely on others, don't realize that they're shutting others out, or aren't quite sure how to need others.”
In response to this, I see no problem with revealing my weaknesses and my struggles to people and still feeling independent. People can share their opinions, can offer suggestions how to deal with something, they can offer their help, but I still feel completely free to make my own decision. I don’t feel letting people in limits me from doing things my own way. It just helps me to become informed as to whether I would like to independently change my way. Ice Queen has this association to me of not being able to open up and rely on somebody else. Reliance is in my mind a show of someone’s real independence, a real show that they have grown up and can do things on their own. Someone who is independent can open themselves up without feeling like they will be changed or that they lose any part of themselves by revealing what’s on the inside. Opening up all the time doesn’t take away from my ability to make my choices all the time. And, I really liked the comment here that we all need others. We can need others without being dependent on them. Dependent would indicate that most of the time we can’t do things for ourselves. Independent people should in my mind be able to do things for themselves but recognize at the same time that they aren’t above having needs and need others. The idea of ice queen in my head is someone who says “Screw the world, I don’t need other people”.
Samuel and I were talking about a scene in Finding Neverland when Johnny Depp makes the comment that the oldest son who is supposed to be somewhere between 9 and 11 has changed from a boy to a man. Why? Because its the first time he starts to see and care about things outside himself (specifically his mother’s condition). He starts to realize that he isn’t just responsible for himself, but that he is also responsible for being aware of the feelings and experiences of others and that those can and should influence how he acts. The idea of Ice Queen, at least my perspective of it, is that it promotes a girl, if only in rhetoric, a girl who during the day doesn’t have to care or be influenced by what others experience. It is important that we aren’t always reacting to people. But the Ice Queen seems to be the other extreme . . . Which is the part that I consider a weakness in guys. When I talked about women becoming like men, I think sometimes independent women start thinking they have to lean towards this Ice Queen who is like that stoic man who doesn’t seem to care about other people.
Granted, there are leaders and business people who go very far by pushing people out of the way and ignoring them and how they feel. And some of them go far without as much work. However, as I talked about last time, I think really great people and leaders are independent people who can still take into account what those around them feel and experience. That takes a lot of work to include other people in our lives. It requires someone who is a lot stronger and more confident in their own values and beliefs. They don’t always get things as fast as some who would do it the other way. But if they should ever fall from their height, they aren’t mocked on the way back down the ladder of life . .. They are respected while those who got there through their icy steel determination seem to get what they deserve.

2)Belen said - “It's not always "the inability to express ourselves" - we often know what we want to say, but we (at least, how it often is with me) aren't so sure you want to hear it, or even care at all. Women are emotional (to varying degrees, depending on the woman) and nobody likes feeling hurt. And when we feel that our emotions/feelings are disregarded, it hurts - that's why communication is so important.”
A short simple comment. If the person doesn’t want to hear it or doesn’t care about what you think or feel or experience or have opinions about, then I don’t think they are equal to you. Nobody likes to be hurt . . . True. But if you keep it inside you can’t find whether they are equal to you. You can’t find out whether they care as much as you, or will be as sensitive as you would, or whether they would fight with the same vigor and vim as you would.

So, I’m going to close giving my ideal definition of the person male or female who is independent:
You are an independent person if you can stand alone intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally. This doesn’t not mean that you have everything together, but that in general you can spend more of your life taking care of what you have to without turning to others. When you really need something you are independent enough to recognize and decide of your own free will to turn to others and you rely on them. Reliance is an act you do on your own. Relying on another person requires the other person to be their, but it depends mostly on you. Independent people are aware of other peoples thoughts and emotions and can factor them into what they are doing (and even help the other person succeed at what they want) while still doing what is ultimately right for their life. Independent people are assertive and ambitious. They do whatever it takes, including relying on other people and trusting them to get what they want. One of my favorite leadership quotes says “Nobody has enough time or resources to get everything they want done .. .to be a good leader you have to learn to let other people do things for you even imperfectly”. You limit your potential when you can’t include other people. Independent people take time to think about things, they form opinions, and they can express them. Your opinion, thoughts, feelings mean little if it can’t be articulated to others. Nor can you be fully assertive and get what you want if you can’t effectively communicate them. Independent people prepare themselves for all possibilities and have plans. Independent people get an education and value it and use it in many ways to bless other people. Independent people know how to manage a house, to be organized in their life, they control their budget, and avoid debt and they can articulately explain how they do that to benefit others who struggle to do the same. Independent people can handle their emotions without letting them get in the way of normal life. Ice Queens also says someone to me that puts off a poor attitude- Independent can have a good attitude and treat others kindly even when they are angry, upset, stressed, or experiencing whatever emotional trauma. Independent people are people who are so strong that they can focus on others and care about and bless their lives no matter what is going on in theirs. That is in my mind the number one strength. People become independent as they arrive at the point that they forget themselves and focus on others. Thus comes the common and very wise phrase that a good relationship is made up of two whole people rather than two halves.
These are my ideals for independence. They are what I expect out of myself. They are what I expect out of other people who claim to be independent male or female. But they are ideals, principles and goals worked for, not necessarily applied perfectly.
P.s. If you know some nice female who can keep up with my personal definition of independence then please send her my way, I haven’t found a girl who fits this definition. Or if you can articulate to me what I am looking at wrong so I would recognize that girl instead of wondering if one actually exists.
P.p.s. I value independent girls who will fight for what they want and what they believe because that’s what I do in the DHT. I know they will let me go toe to toe with them. I’ve been told that I seem like the type who would want a quiet really nice girl . ..trust me when I say they wouldn’t be good for me. They are sweet and good, but when someone is quiet and won’t go toe to toe with me I worry that one day I will really hurt them. . .because I do fight for what I want and what I believe. If people don’t match it .. .well, I’m rather frank with them and will fight for it. Independent people can take that. The really sweet quiet type, well, it may be a wrong judgment, but I worry about hurting them or destroying their sweet nature with my skepticism of life and people. Secondly, quiet is never a good idea for me. That’s why I consider being articulate so important. If someone is quiet, I don’t know if there is any depth to them. I often fight people to open up to prove they have the depth of person equal to mine. When people don’t open up I’m left wondering whether it’s because they don’t trust me or whether there just isn’t any more depth to them than what I am getting. Independent people I hope aren’t shallow, but if they don’t open up then I am left to wonder what wall do I need to break or is there nothing more to this person.


Letters to the Editor
Mark,

The whole bit about wanting to "be the ice queen by day, and put on fuzzy pink slippers and cuddle by night" is SO me.

For me, the whole, "If you see us as independent, get ready to step it up and be more of a man. If you're not willing to do that, then find someone else. We can protect ourselves during the day. It's at night when we just want to be our vulnerable damsels in distress. There's nothing worse than a man who is afraid to infringe upon our "independence" and be firm and commanding and protecting because he's scarred he'll offend us. When he does this ( and trust me, we can always tell) we're usually thinking "you're not strong enough to keep up with me. I don't feel like you could provide for or protect me so you better find someone a little more insecure with themselves who you won't be intimidated by." thing is dead on. I like it when a guy challenges my thoughts or feelings, but I also like it when he is sweet and chivalrous.

The way I see it, I don't want a servant, nor do I want a tyrant. I want a partner. I want someone who can be my equal intellectually, mentally, spiritually, etc. Seriously though, when I'm with a guy who will back off in a fight because I'm "independent" I'm like, "well, you can't hold your own against me, so you can't hold your own against the world, therefore, you can't defend me when I need you. Goodbye."

Do I still need someone to hold me at night? Yes. Do I still need someone to send me roses for no reason at all? Yes. But I also need a man who can fight for what he believes in, even if that means fighting me. Don't disable me because I'm a woman, but don't empower me because I'm a woman.

Does this help? I don't know...I'm tired myself. :)

Briana

whoa whoa whoa
"An independent woman complains that she feels like a male? You’ve stepped into the shoes of a male, now you get treated like a male, its completely logical to a male(but women are emotional and that would be illogical to them :) )"

Because we tend to be assertive and ambitious and independent we've stepped into the shoes of a male? You want to think about YOUR logic right there? Apparently I can't be assertive and ambitious without becoming a male, because no real woman would be assertive and ambitious because that's a mans job. We'll just sit quietly in our parlor in pink frilly dresses thinking about laundry detergent and garden parties.

Natalie



I wanted to put this as a comment to your blog, but you took the link down, so I guess I'll send it this way.
I think a big part of independence in realtionships comes from a lack of trust. Being independent is safer- then no one can hurt you. It takes a lot of trust and self confidence to let someone else not only see your weaknesses, but to let them see that you need them. Something that I've learned about myself recently is that I am not good at needing people. It scares me to need others, to rely on someone other than myself. And it's hard to make the transition from relying mostly on myself to letting myself rely on someone else. It takes time- and practice- to learn to let myself have that trust in others. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to need others. It just means that I'm still learning how. And maybe that's just me, but I think a lot of 'independent' people are just people who aren't ready to rely on others, don't realize that they're shutting others out, or aren't quite sure how to need others.
Cara

Hey Mark,

My boys are asleep so I'm taking a chance to at least attempt an email. I read the latest DHT and have been thinking about it, hopefully enough to give a coherent response. It's very true that most women struggle to communicate effectively with men, especially in personal relationships. Many times I've become frustrated or been the source of frustration because of my own lack of effective communication. Ah, if we could just read each others minds and intents, then we'd be spared so many arguments. I've found in my marriage that there are instances when I had assumed that John understood me, when he had no idea. For example, there have been times when I'm struggling to get the boys ready for church and I've wanted some help, but got none because I didn't ask specifically for help. In the meantime I'd be getting angrier by the minute because I'd think that he's being deliberately lazy, when he was simply not aware of what was going on. But I wouldn't discover this until after I'd started yelling at him over something unrelated later on. Dumb. I will also say that when dating, I always let a guy know when the time came that I was happy for him to open doors, get chairs, etc. for me if he felt so inspired. If I had been on a date with a particular guy a few times, then I'd usually tell him that he was not required to do those things anymore. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever let John get my car door, mostly because I'd get sick of waiting in the car while he walked around to get the door :]. I had a professor who relayed to us, something his wife said to him, something like -- women don't necessarily want to be equal to men they just want the opportunity to be equal.

It also occurs to me that sometimes communication problems arise when we have certain expectations about how a certain situation should play out, or how another person should behave. These expectations can come from prior experiences, media, or from others experiences. For example, a young woman might expect for her date to open doors, etc. because her father always did that for her mother, but he doesn't because he never seen his father do that for his mother, or he's afraid offending her somehow if she doesn't expect him to do that. I've found that I have to tell John my expectations, so I can have the outcome I desire. Sometimes either he or I have had expectations that we didn't realize we had until after we've argued/discussed heatedly :]. I'd say more, but I've got two crying boys that need my attention.

Sincerely,
Ada

PS -- The book, First Comes Love by David (?) Brinley has a great chapter about communication.

For me, a lot (maybe even most) of the guys I have met seem to be intimidated by the very fact that I do know what I want and am not afraid to say so - I am not always outspoken, but can be and they seem to be offended by it (which is why I'm not always outspoken). I have met a few guys that respect that and are my friends because I am more independent, but the rest are put off and keep their distance.
One thing I've noticed pretty consistently in the ones that are "put off" is that they want girls that will flirt and carry on because they aren't so sure about themselves, being mostly ego with little to no confidence - occasionally, they're just shy and/or socially awkward, but are usually the former.
As for the "not being able to keep up with me" - I am harder to keep up with, I've set a higher standard for myself and want/expect others to do the same. I ask more of people. However, people in general (guys and girls) prefer the path of least resistance, relationships that are easy, someone they don't have to "keep up with".
I know what I want, I set my sights high and go for it - but I'm not a loner, I want friends (and eventually a man) that will keep up with me. I say will because, in reality, everyone does have the potential, everyone could keep up with me, they simply don't want to - they prefer the easy stroll or the short jog to the hard, long run. But when we get to where we're going, I (and my man ;) will be the ones in top form (hehehe!).
What needs to be kept in mind is that while we can be masculine to varying degrees, we can never be completely masculine - we are missing the Y chromosome, after all. We wear our "man boots" for most of the day, but we still want a pair of strong, caring arms to wrap around us when we're at home, and no matter what anyone may say, do, or act like, we're still females - yeah, we're confusing, we're frustrating, and we drive you insane trying to "figure us out", but we don't mean to (at least, most of us don't, though occasionally we may play hob when we've had a bad day or a particularly bad [and recent] experience with those of the male species and we gnash our teeth at every one in sight).
Understanding is crucial - cultivate it! When you're baffled and/or irritated it is often best to remain quiet and hope it will make sense later (not that it always will, but hey, guys don't always make sense to us either :P )

Being interested in psychology, it seems to me that (at least a part) of the reason you're irritated is that you feel that you do step it up and that you are strong enough, and so someone implying that you aren't... well, it sets you off.
My experience is that a lot of guys nowadays (being unsure of what to think of the independent female) aren't so sure about taking the lead. I've seen it in conversation, dancing, working, etc., and those are the ones that need to "step it up."
I also think that whoever was writing about being "on a date with a guy who observes my ambition and assertiveness, gives me the title of 'independent woman' and then proceeds to treat me like some powerhouse CEO who's only interested in business and a very businesslike relationship" should consider the fact that maybe she's misinterpreting something - maybe the guy is showing respect. After all (from what I understand), isn't that how guys show respect for each other? If she only goes on one date with the guy, labels him as "stupid, ignorant, and not worth my time", how can she ever know what he really thinks of her?
As for those princesses that give off an "I don't need your help" vibe, they are often frustrated and often feel like men think they are weak and inferior, so they then refuse help because they feel a need to prove that they are just as strong, thus proving (to themselves as well as the men) that they are not weak and inferior. We want to be respected as equals, not disregarded or coddled as inferiors.
However, it is in our nature to curl up next to someone, (kind of like how a cat, after being aloof, distant and off on its own all day jumps into your lap, purring and looking forward to curling up and relaxing for a while) and when we don't have that, it tends put us out of balance (often resulting in more of the "I don't need you" vibe).
Lastly (wow, this keeps on getting longer and longer...) I think you've hit upon a point that a lot of people overlook in relationships: "If you want to tell your girlfriends how annoying it is that your guy doesn’t give you what you want. ..then you’re stupid because you are complaining to the people who can’t give you what you want." Girls (from people I just met to people I've known for years) talk to me all the time about how some guy isn't shaping up, or something about the guy is bothering them, but they don't tell the guy, and if the guy doesn't know, how is he supposed to do anything about it? I may have done it without realizing it, but I try to let the guy know (not having done any dating to speak of, I still let my guyfriends know what I think of them, both negative and positive).
But guys have also discussed how much they like me, would like to go on a date with me, etc. with my best friends, which drives me up the wall because they refuse to talk to me about furthering a relationship with me - it's not as if telling my friend all about it will change anything. If they want anything to do with me they need to talk to me! And every guy that has tried to talk to me about how much they like some other girl, would like to date her, etc., I have told to talk to that girl about it - I know they're worried, but telling me won't change a thing.


I feel like I'm not quite getting across everything I mean, but hopefully some of it makes sense,
Belen (:

PS. It's not always "the inability to express ourselves" - we often know what we want to say, but we (at least, how it often is with me) aren't so sure you want to hear it, or even care at all. Women are emotional (to varying degrees, depending on the woman) and nobody likes feeling hurt. And when we feel that our emotions/feelings are disregarded, it hurts - that's why communication is so important.
Just keep communicating!
And don't forget the positive when frustrated with the negative ;)

Mark-
I'd like to give you my personal opinion on what being an independent woman means to me. First, a little background: When I first got married, I was 19. I had graduated high school a year earlier, hadn't been to college, and was barely scraping by with a minimum wage job. I already had one daughter, and after I got married, my husband and I soon had another daughter. Daycare was too expensive for me, only having a high school diploma hindered my ability to get a higher paying job, and I didn't like the idea of other people taking care of my children (I knew what I wanted for them, and wasn't confident a daycare could provide that), so I stayed at home while my husband worked. Our family relied totally on my husband financially. If I wanted to buy something for myself or my children that was out of the normal range of paying bills or buying groceries, I had to ask for the money to do it. When my husband became emotionally and eventually physically abusive toward me, I felt helpless to change the situation. If I left, how was I supposed to provide for myself and my children? We were completely dependent on my husband. Eventually I felt it was too dangerous for myself and my children to stay with him, and so I moved to another state with my mom. She helped me get on my feet- taking care of my children while I worked, and giving us a place to stay. Eventually I met someone else who cared deeply for myself and my children, and we moved in with him. We love each other very much, and while he is more than willing and able to provide for us, I still felt dependent on him. So I made the decision to become more self-sufficient, and I went back to school. I know now that I will never feel like I am "stuck" or helpless again in the way that I did before. My partner is more than happy with my decision- my confidence has gone up considerably, and it makes me very happy to be efficient in my OWN field of specialty! I feel like we are on more equal footing now, and that has improved our relationship in its own way. He still treats me and my children the same way, with love, respect, and kindness (and he's more than happy to play the role of a "man" and say, change the oil in my car- even though I know how to, and I'm more than happy to LET him). Some things I would rather do myself, but we always consult one another and bounce ideas back and forth, and we are constantly communicating our needs and wants to one another. I am confident that I won't NEED to provide for myself and my children in the future, but knowing that I COULD helps me to be a happier more confident person. I don't feel like I'm the lesser half, and I don't know if I can express how good it feels to not have to ask for money to buy a book or some new clothes (even though he's more than willing to give it to me, and often gives me things he knows I want). So for me, being an independent woman doesn't mean I want to be a "man", and I certainly don't complain when he offers to wash my car for me or changes the lightbulbs I can't reach! I'm glad to be a woman, glad to be a mother, glad to be loved and doted on, but I make sure that my partner and children are also loved and doted on. As far as being put on a pedestal, count me out! I'm only human like everyone else. I hold those I love to high standards because I know they can live up to them, and they do the same for me, but we should all be careful not to make them so high that when the pedestal topples, we can't catch ourselves and the ones we love.
So that's my tangent, hopefully that gives you more insight into another point of view. A woman who is or wants to be independent isn't someone to be angry at, but rather someone to love and respect the same as anyone else. We all need to feel important, and we all want to be loved.

Nikki


The Editor,
Mark

The Daily Honky Tonk 191st Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
191st Edition
Friday, July 30, 2010
1:41 AM

Someone I love very much recently recommended that I write about things I really care about. I’ve been trying to follow that suggestion. Articles about caring, pushing oneself, and tonight, I’m going to return to the battle of the sexes. I requested some reading material from a friend about independent women . . . And now that I’ve read it I find myself riled up enough that if I don’t write I probably won’t get to sleep in the four hours that I have right now before I have to wake up. Good thing I took a nap today.

Independent Women

I was out with a girl tonight and we were talking about dating in general. For all of those of you who think it is a bad idea to talk about dating on a date . . . Well quite frankly I don’t. I talk about people I’ve dated, I ask question about people the other person had dated. I try and find out what the person expects from life. I consider it important to very quickly know what the person expects and wants from life and whether it is similar to me. I invest too much in people to waste my time and energy on people who want things that are too drastically different from what I want in my life.
So, I’m attracted to independent girls because they generally seem to know what they want and they can usually express it. Women seem to have a problem with this. And while I’ve made it a point to try and be able to read women and what they want and I consider myself better at it than many guys. . . I still by and large prefer they just tell me because I will still get it wrong plenty of times. Today, I’m not so sure that independent girls are that much better at expressing what they want (what I thought I saw in them) . . Please read the following excerpts.

“ Looking mixed-heartedly and as if she was waiting impatiently for dear life, Princess Fiona commands to Shrek, “What are you doing? You know, you should sweep me off my feet out yonder window and down a rope onto your valiant steed.” While gawking at her and the idea of being told what was supposed to come of the rescue mission, Shrek dashes to save the Princess. “Shrek” is the prime example of a world full of fairy tale living, chivalrous ways, and the realities of what the world has come to. Shrek, being the hero or the chivalrous one, is trying to be an ogre with values and class, treating his fair lady with what all little girls used to dream of, a Prince Charming. Princess Fiona represents what has become of the modest princess, or lady, looking for that right man to sweep her off her feet and be her knight and shining armor.
I don’t remember in the story of the damsel in distress being saved and saying, “I can get on this horse myself, I don’t need your help.” From what I read and saw, I have always thought that a man was supposed to be my Prince, ultimately. Being chivalrous is referred to a sort of knighthood, courteous and honorable towards women; however in our the modern day structure of life, I can honestly see how it can be pretty hard or confusing for a man to understand what a woman really wants, when there is always a song or speech about women being independent and how they don’t need a man for anything. Women are more independent and, if it so shall happen, would not need a man to survive this life. The thing is, most still want to be treated like a princess. Women would like to be put on a pedestal, with the option of being able, not disabled.

The second excerpt:
Imagine a woman: She has a college degree and a job, she pays for her own house and car, and she’s not intimidated by any man for any reason. She’s smart, independent and strong.
Isn’t it a puzzle, then, that she dreams of chivalry and a commanding male presence?

Actually, researchers say, it makes perfect sense.
In perhaps the most fun assignment ever, Psychology Today‘s news editor, Matthew Hutson, has been blogging about why strong women fantasize about chivalry in an overcommanding way......
....In recent years, University of Kansas psychologist Patricia Hawley has picked up where Hinton left off. It appears independent women typically still have many traditional viewpoints when it comes to relationships. They expect men to open doors for them. They expect to be put on a pedestal (and men, wouldn't you if you want to be treated as such if you were expected to go through excruciating pain to continue the human existence). And they expect to still be treated as a princess, as they have been since childhood. Men don't seem to understand a woman's definition of independent. We're not trying to be men in a man's workplace. We're still women, we still like to be effeminate. I can't count how many times I've been on a date with a guy who observes my ambition and assertiveness, gives me the title of "independent woman" and then proceeds to treat me like some powerhouse CEO who's only interested in business and a very businesslike relationship. That sucks. Because believe it or not, I may be assertive but I also like to play the role of a giggly girl in love. Just because I act independent during the day doesn't mean I want to be so at night. By 5:00 pm I'm sick of being the ice queen in the conference room and ready to go curl up in my pink silky pjs with ice cream and a chick flick, or I'm ready to throw on my little black dress and look for some pigheaded guy in a bar only because he's going to treat me like an inferior being (because I'm a woman) but I'll like it because he treats me like he could one day protect me. And maybe that's all I'm trying to get at. Most of the time we "independents" feel like the man in a relationship. Read me loud and clear. We hate that. If you see us as independent, get ready to step it up and be more of a man. If you're not willing to do that, then find someone else. We can protect ourselves during the day. It's at night when we just want to be our vulnerable damsels in distress. There's nothing worse than a man who is afraid to infringe upon our "independence" and be firm and commanding and protecting because he's scarred he'll offend us. When he does this ( and trust me, we can always tell) we're usually thinking "you're not strong enough to keep up with me. I don't feel like you could provide for or protect me so you better find someone a little more insecure with themselves who you won't be intimidated by."
End Excerpts

For whatever reason, I am really angry. I’m not sure why. Maybe because my ego as a male has been attacked. I’ve never been one to side with the male ego. But believe me, I have one. Let’s take a quote.

“I can honestly see how it can be pretty hard or confusing for a man to understand what a woman really wants, when there is always a song or speech about women being independent and how they don’t need a man for anything.”

It’s really confusing. Women are confusing enough without a new way of living. Their inability to express themselves is frustrating as all get out at times. Their refusal to say what they want is annoying. . . Even if you don’t know what you want. .. Saying that you don’t know is better than nothing.
I think the best leaders in the world know what they want and can go after it. They can also clearly communicate what they want to other people and aren’t afraid to tell those they lead when they aren’t getting it. This is what I have come to expect out of an independent woman. However, these articles say to me that these independent women women struggle with the same stupid problem. . .they can’t say what they want.
I think the part that offended me the most was that the writer says you need to step it up as a male. Really? Would you even recognize the male stepping up? I’m sure that women can read when the male is scared of offending the girls through his actions. But I think the woman has made a big mistake to assume its because the male is not strong enough.
How is a male going to treat someone who acts in many ways like a male .. .well .. . Like a male. You aren’t going to try and rescue a princess when she puts the I don’t want your help attitude on. You’d be more than happy to do it. ..but you aren’t going to do it when they act like they don’t want you or need you. Not because you can’t keep up. . .but because everything you read as a male says they don’t want it.
Is it all just some show? I mean, I don’t really get it. An independent woman complains that she feels like a male? You’ve stepped into the shoes of a male, now you get treated like a male, its completely logical to a male (but women are emotional and that would be illogical to them :) ). Males are taught not to rely on each other. We aren’t supposed to show weakness. The lady doesn’t rely on others, doesn’t show weakness, and then says that she wants to still be treated like a lady. Then stop sending the wrong signals. You can still be independent, but express it.
Why is it that I haven’t read about this before? Why haven’t women said this to me before? Part of my suspicion. . .I wasn’t given the source for these articles, is that these excerpts are from a women’s magazine. Women can complain all they want about guys in there and read about other girls complaining about the same thing and then are apparently dumb enough to believe that because now every girl in the world thinks the same thing that guys will just be able to read exactly what girls want when they never happened to mention it to the guy.
I don’t think it is weak to say what you want. In fact, I think it takes a strong person to know and express what they want. You have to be smart to really know what you want and what will be valuable to you. To get what you want takes work and effort. If you can’t say what you want outright. . Then you have no reason or right to complain. If you want to tell your girlfriends how annoying it is that your guy doesn’t give you what you want. ..then you’re stupid because you are complaining to the people who can’t give you what you want. Guys aren’t stupid. They can listen to what your saying if you don’t try and hide it between the lines.
I don’t know that this is helping. I’m just getting more angry. Like I said in my last DHT . . . It takes a lot for me to care about people and not just think they are dumb. Well, maybe I should qualify that with, when I am moody I think people are dumb. When I’m happy, people are easy to love. It’s when I’m angry at myself, and the world, and can’t get out of my funks that I think people are dumb.
I hope that if you read this DHT you read others to understand that I usually like to write things out in a way that is agreeable to all parties. Most of this that I’m writing comes from the fact that I’m just angry that I read what I would have liked to hear and understood years ago. It probably doesn’t help that I lack sleep. I’ve been sickly stressed out for over a month and I’m upset at myself for feeling angry.
I’d love to hear some opinions. I’ve discussed a very narrow field of view. There are exceptions to nearly everything I’ve said. There are always exceptions to the rule. .. And I don’t even know that you can say anything I’ve said fits under a rule.

I want to end on a positive note. A quote my friend highlighted for me:
“The thing is, most still want to be treated like a princess. Women would like to be put on a pedestal, with the option of being able, not disabled.”
I don’t know any other way to enable individuals other than to find out what they really care about and what makes them tick. What you really care about is found in what you want. Your actions are all motivated by the things you care most about. The way I put women on a pedestal is by trying to give them the things they want (as long as they are good for them). If I know the wants of a young lady and its not within the realm of my ability I am more than happy to give her to someone who can meet those wants/needs (after I’ve satisfied my ego by giving it my best shot and proving to myself whether I can or can’t). But if I don’t know what in the world a girl wants I can’t put her on her pedestal. I know, it seems like guys should inherently know. But we aren’t taught our whole lives how to give back and forth like girls are taught to do to each other. We just know what we want and we push for it. Its not that guys can’t learn to read what you want . . . But its a learned skill over much time. So be patient with them, like they are being with you . . . They just might be man enough for you after all.

P.s. One final thought on wants: Wants change. This adds a whole new layer of difficulty between people. Just communicate. That goes for the males too!

The Editor,
Mark

The Daily Honky Tonk 190th Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
190th Edition
Thursday, July 29, 2010

Table of Contents
Caring

Caring
Meditations on a Long Term Inner Battle

“You love them, don’t you? And that’s natural. . .I can look at your face and know your philosophy, it’s kindness. . .There are people who’ll go after your humanity, Sister. They’ll tell you that the light in your heart is a weakness. Don’t believe it. It’s an old tactic of cruel people to kill kindness in the name of virtue. There is nothing wrong with love. . . Have you forgotten the message of our Savior? It’s love, of people.”- Father Flynn- Doubt

The things I pray for most often are the things I most often feel I’m lacking. I don’t try and focus on all at once, but I generally find myself praying for humility, patience and understanding, and charity. Charity seems to effectively embody humility, patience, and understanding.
“And charity suffereth long [patience], and is kind, and envieth not [humility], and is not puffed up [humility], seeketh not her own [not being manipulative], is not easily provoked [patience, understanding, and humility], thinketh no evil [understanding others], and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in truth [understanding], beareth all things [patience and understanding], believeth all things [yay faith :) and humility], hopeth all things [patience], endureth all things.” (Moroni 7:45, with Mark’s notes).
Every time I’m feeling angry and think that people and the world at large are dumb, that soft voice of the Spirit prods me and reminds me that without charity the Lord will not forgive me and He won’t allow me back in His presence. And then He reminds me of great promises like the ones in the verses immediately following 45:
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing [see here, nothing, worthless, the Bible says we are as dross], for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail- [but wait, here comes the curve ball . . ]
“But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever [ringing bells of joy . .unlike everything else, charity never faileth]”
I’m glad I opened my scriptures to look for things I wanted to talk about. But I’m kind of upset. I wanted to write a long article complaining about the cost of caring. Because caring does cost. Look at the baptismal covenant:
“ . . . and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; Yea and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort . .” (Mosiah 18:8-9)
Now those things take effort. We are agreeing to carry a literal burden and feel actual sorrow for other people (and I’ll remind you here that we are also to feel joy (not just sadness) for other people rather than envying them). It’s a way in which the Savior helps us to understand Him and how much He loves us. We, for a couple people, get to feel their burdens and weights, and in return we are reminded that the Savior carried all the weight and burdens. Suddenly our burden (which is in fact heavy) seems small compared to His.
I mean, let’s not downsize how much energy it sometimes cost us to care. It can cost time, sleep, a peaceful mind, energy, maybe money, an appetite, the ability to function. Okay. . .whoa, maybe here is where I’m hitting the problem. Is caring for other’s really supposed to cost that much? Charity never fails. But what if what I feel for other people isn’t charity?
I’ve tried backing away before. Sometimes the “Screw the world” attitude doesn’t seem that bad to me. He he, this reminds me of a scene from Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants Movie. Libby is the moody “screw the world teen” and Carmen comes home complaining. Libby, who has grown up a little after meeting a girl with leukemia tells Carmen off for complaining about her problems. Carmen, gets angry and yells at Libby telling her she is dumb and doesn’t understand “You just say “screw the world” because it’s easier than having to feel anything.” I sometimes think it would be easier to do the same. Forget people, I don’t want to feel anything. But once again, I do love the Lord, so it isn’t really an option to not care. But, really, what should caring cost?
I remember a time in the last year or two when Scott and I were roommates. Scott has an incredible talent for remembering the details of people’s lives. He remembered when I had tests that I didn’t even care about and would send me a text wishing me good luck. That felt good even if at times I was a little annoyed that he could care so much, and I could remember so little about his life. It was nice to know he cared. Through his example, I realized I had disattached myself from people and found myself only interested in what people had to offer me intellectually. I was interested in talking, but I could have cared less about the details of people’s lives. I wanted to understand people through their deepest thoughts, but I refused to care about what was happening to them. I would start to open up to people, but they would close off to me. In an enlightening session with the therapist I was visiting, he suggested that I tried to invest myself in little things. People, he suggested are more comfortable initially opening up about the more normal parts of lives, as time passes they will open up to you about other things because they feel you will care.
Well, that sounds all nice, but I don’t want to just listen to people’s days so that I can selfishly get them to open their souls to me for my personal fulfillment. So, I decided I would have to learn how to care about the little things. If I didn’t really want to know it, I shouldn’t ask it became my philosophy. This is a good philosophy for investing in other people and actually caring. It is not a good philosophy when you just are having chit chat. I still don’t think it’s realistic to remember every detail about every person you meet. But starting with polite conversation and questions whose answers you forget may later lead to a friendship in which you will both ask those questions again and really care about the answers. It’s a little complicated, I know.
Caring takes a lot of work. I don’t believe it comes naturally to anyone. Its one of those virtues that we have to build. I think that I perhaps appreciate great works of literature most, because they help me to actually care about people. Literature generally encourages me to understand people and be patient with them and love them rather than to dismiss them all because they clearly can’t keep up with my ideals :).
A good example of this is the book I just finished tonight, “To Kill a Mockingbird”. It was an excellent read. No, I haven’t read it before. None of my teachers ever required me to read it. I think Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison may have been it’s replacement. I think that Harper Lee does a beautiful job of portraying what I think of as the ideal caring person in Atticus. Atticus can see , even in the people who may do the most harm to him, their inherent goodness. He judges the best in people and loves them despite the many times they fail at doing what is right or even when they hate him. Near the end of the book, Scout comments as she drifts off into sleep that some crazy person in her dream turned out to be real nice. Atticus replies “Most people are, Scout, when you finally see them.”
He’s right. I think sometimes I have a tendency to pry into people’s lives because of how much more love and understanding I know I will have for them. When you can really see a person- I mean really see. What do I mean? Seeing means you know their life history, you know the circumstances in which they grew up, you know what were major turning points in their lives, you know their personality, you know their strengths and their weaknesses are, their dreams and their fears, their successes and failures, the people who inspire them, the people they dislike, what they choose to do in their free time, what they choose not to do . .and so much more your love for that person increases exponentially. Isn’t it funny that the things all humans have a hard time sharing about themselves actually draws them together? It seems like a contradiction. . .but its not. Its the theme of countless works of literature, normal fun reads, movies, and other forms of entertainment. The plot of the story is often the unfolding of our knowledge of characters. As we understand them, the first judgment is shed from our eyes, and what we once saw, becomes something knew. It’s like a puzzle. Puzzles are not that beautiful when they are in thousands of pieces that we can’t seem to quite put together. As the pieces come together, we appreciate the puzzle and the work it took to put the pieces together.
Perhaps Heavenly Father and the Savior can love us so much without condition because they already have a perfect understanding of us. For now, we have to learn how to love without that perfect understanding. I think we can see that big picture when we talk about racial differences or Hitler and the Jews, or even the persecution of the religious groups. But somehow, we forget it when it’s the EFY kids, or the education week, or women’s conference that is supposedly (in the view of some students) invading our campus. Or it’s easier to worry about the poor people in Africa and donate to them than it is to that family who we’ve never seen work very hard for anything in their life. (I’m not suggesting that we should jump up and hand our money to beggars, but we might try and really understand people’s situations before we deny assistance). It’s easier to love the fans of another team or even the players when we see them doing service, but it then becomes hard not to yell at them or curse at them on the field. The same thing can be said for referees, who undoubtedly made a worse call than we would have. Or the bozo holding up the line who obviously hasn’t had as long and as hard a day as we have had. I could list more. But you get the picture.
Caring is worth it. It takes a lot of work. You have to ask yourself a lot of questions. You have to be introspective and painfully honest about yourself and your dealings with other people. And when I say painful, it hurts to sit there and list off what you’ve done and thought wrong about other people. But on the reverse end, caring is incredibly rewarding. The joy is addictive. After the pain the feeling of pure love sweeps through you. Why? Because charity is a gift of God. After all our work to love others, He bestows upon us His ability to love and feel what He feels for us. Because being human, no matter how much we’ve worked for that charity, we are incapable of having a fullness of charity for other. The charity we feel is in fact not ours at all. Its the taste our Father gives us of His love. Its an ability to feel for others what we couldn’t feel on our own. There is no sweeter fruit than that love. The price is worth it.

The Editor,
Mark

The Daily Honky Tonk 189th Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
189th Edition
Sunday, July 25, 2010

This whole past week has been a bit of an adventure. Samuel (my roommate) and I played all week, watching action flicks, talking, and spending time with other friends. And most importantly we participated in the worlds largest water balloon fight. It was incredibly fun and we set a world record with other BYU peoples :).

Table of Contents
Briana’s Blog
Kory’s Blog
Letters to the Editor (includes immigration, dating, and self discovery responses)

Briana’s Blog
Briana and I were in a play together. She and I have been friends since then and I enjoy our talks. We hung out the other weekend and I have to wonder after reading her blog if our conversation stuck with her :). Anyway, I wanted to respond to the blog because I always have stuff to say about marriage, and because she asked for responses.
You can read the blog post here- http://brianashipley.blogspot.com/2010/07/deep-thoughts.html
I don’t think anyone can negate completely the fear that exists with being married. It just is scary. There are plenty of examples of good marriages and plenty of examples of bad marriages. Certainly the bad ones ring out strongly in my generation. And the idea of marriage has in many ways been portrayed as being “tied down” or just a luck of the game type event. We could go over all the ideas that are negatively associated with marriage, but I think we know them.
The truth is that Satan is fighting very hard to destroy the family. And in some ways, he seems to be winning that battle. But he is only winning the battle, not the war. In the end, good wins, no matter how bad it gets right now.
I believe that optimism is a good thing. However, I don’t believe in optimism in the idealistic sense that if we always say “I think I can” things will just happen. I believe in optimistic realism. I’ll try and give an example in the context of the conversation. Briana mentions
What if the spouse is physically (and I’ll add and/or verbally/emotionally abusive)? This is a real fear. A realitic optimist does not negate the possibility. Instead, I say, it may be the case, but in the end if I continue on the right path the Savior will make up for it. If I marry a girl and she stops obeying the Lord, she becomes an alcoholic, abuses our children, and is constantly selfish then in the end all those hurts will be healed. They will not be taken away necessarily and it would be very hard. However, the Savior will make up the difference and He has suffered the pain to understand and heal my pain.
Now this may not sound very optimistic to other people, but for me it is. I can’t control my future. There is no way I can get a promise from anyone including the Lord that things won’t go wrong. The Lord allows even our spouses to make their own decisions. I’ve watched plenty of examples where the Lord probably knew the outcome of a marriage, but he didn’t stop it. Why? That’s hard to say. I don’t know that there is a really good answer. But I do know this. There was a mother who had three beautiful daughters. She served a mission, was very faithful and had those daughters with a good member of the church. When I met her, the husband had stopped believing in God, had cheated on her and was now living with the other woman, and their had been a painful divorce. It had nothing at all to do with the woman. She was and still is a very faithful member of the Church. Her daughters radiate the sweetness they have learned from their mother. There was nothing in my mind that made the situation fair. It could not be fixed. And I’m sure that she wasn’t told by inspiration that her husband would leave her 10 years later. However, I sat through a Testimony Meeting in which I listened to one of the most powerful testimonies of the Savior’s love and power to heal. The Savior has power to take us out of the darkest and bitterest parts of life.
To marry, we have to have faith. Faith that in the end things will be alright. Not that our marriage will go perfect, not that it will be years and years of bliss, not that it won’t all fall to pieces and our lives will be our own personal Hells for a time. Instead we trust that in the end, if we were on the right path, those things would be healed and we will be blessed more than what we were originally given. I think this is the great lesson of Job in The Bible.
Once, a person has accepted this, you have to put aside those fears. You don’t try and tell yourself they aren’t real. That’s unrealistic in my mind. But you realize if that’s all you think about, there is no way you could put your trust in anybody enough to feel anything for them.
Some great advice I received from my friend Aaron (Amy’s husband) was that when dating you need to think about what you feel for the person. You can’t worry about how they feel towards you. You focus on how you feel about them and leave them to themselves. The only thing you can really look at is if you like where the person is now. You can’t change their past, and you won’t be in control of their future even if you marry them.
It’s comforting to be told by those who have successful marriages that you don’t always like your spouse, that marriage is mostly hard work, that it takes a lot, that its not some fairy tale bliss, that you get tired of each other, etc. etc. So, if these things are all true, but we also are taught that marriage brings bliss, how is it possible? It’s possible because everything that is really good in life comes because it takes a lot of work. Marriage is not instant gratification. It is a gradual build of joy and happiness through years and years of working together.
I can list hundreds of attributes you could try and line up to make things work, but in the end I still think it comes down to communication and a desire to work through things. Two people who don’t want their marriage to end will work at it even if it requires months, nay years, to get past it. Studies have shown that most unhappy couples who work through it are happy again five years later.
I think the reason that marriage can be so hard and that its so hard to get there is like any good thing in life, Satan doesn’t want us to have it. He will stop at nothing to ruin our chances at happiness, or even believing that we could be happy. He knows the great potential of the family, not only to have happiness therein, but to be a good influence on a community, a nation, and the world. Good families, produce good children, who can continue to promote good influence in the world. The family is the strongest battle unit the Lord has. Satan knows he can tear out the foundation of the world by tearing up families and by stopping future families from coming forward. He’s a smart enemy for sure.
So, my final comment to Briana, is if you think you want marriage, add it to your five to ten year plan, or it probably won’t happen. If it isn’t in the plan, you probably won’t address the fears, you won’t put yourself out there for the opportunities and other things will take priorities. The paradox in love is though it’s the best gift to receive, we have to be just as willing to give it and put everything out there. All our fears and doubts can stop us from receiving that love, even if someone is trying to give it to us.
Why do this sooner than later? Well, as we get older, we all get more set in our ways. It is easier now to be less selfish, more flexible, and more adaptive when we are younger than when we keep adding years of experience to justify how we think things should be :).
I hope that was helpful.

Kory’s Blog
My Aunt Kory writes one of my favorite blogs. I love reading her blog. If you haven’t had the privilege of doing so, you can go read her blog at http://welcometomysoapbox.blogspot.com/

Friday, July 23, 2010
The Problem With Not Being Easily Offended

We tend to be viewed as 'insensitive' to others.

We wouldn't be offended by it, so why would someone else?

Things that we would consider as a natural part of every day conversation others misinterpret as an attack. Typically it will take someone a few months of knowing us to realize- 'that's just who they are'

Not being easily offended, or caring what others think is a liberating quality- but it can also limit one's inner circle of friends to individuals that have really good self-esteem, are very thick skinned, or are extremely forgiving. I think I'm ok with that.

**I tend to be on the extremely forgiving end. I could take some more thick skin :) Yeah, I like reading what Kory has to say always. We don’t always agree on things, but I feel like we respect each others opinions and I enjoy getting new insights from her.

P.s. Once on her blog, to get a good taste, I recommend you read the list of blogs under the subtitle “Posts That Got More Than 5 Hits”

Letters to the Editor

You were a smart kid to realize that personality supercedes looks! Nice for you, you have both.

If we dedicate all of our time to our spouse or the individual we're dating, we put undue pressure on them to be 'everything' to us.

If we have many relationships outside of our significant other, the need to be 'everything' is lifted.

We are all unique and dynamic individuals, and the idea that one person is going to satisify all of our needs has lead to many a disgruntled marriage. Often, we can get those 'needs' fufilled through friends. I don't need my husband to be hilarious, because I have girlfriends that think I'm hilarious. This too can go too far. There obviously needs to be a healthy balance, with the majority of connections with your spouse.

My point is, this new direction you're going will release some of the pressure you're putting on your relationships and yourself.
Kory

** I bold faced what I appreciated the most. After writing about passions, I’ve taken more time to consider what I really need fulfilled through my wife and what I won’t. The disappearing pressure is nice :).


I've always wondered why no one has made it simpler to enter the country legally. It would help [at least somewhat] with illegal immigrants, so why do people seem to be more interested in building walls to keep them out instead of making it easier to come in the right way?
As for more "freedom" in sex, even without the consequences of law, there will always be consequences - people call it "breaking" the commandments, but really all they're doing is breaking themselves against them, for the commandments still stand. Laws that are irrevocably decreed cannot be changed, justice must and will be served regardless. Only those who have repented and applied the Atonement receive mercy, for Christ has already paid their debt. And even in this life there are consequences - they are empty, following after the lusts of their eyes, and so will lead an empty life, having no purpose except to perhaps serve as a warning for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Yes, it is saddening and we should do all we can to prevent it, but people tend to be stupid and foolhardy [everyone is to some extent] and we can only do so much and leave the rest in the Lord's hands.

Belen
**Thanks for the reminder about sin and consequences. I think the phrase I put in bold is a very beautiful word picture of what you expressed.

I enjoyed your observations about pushing yourself to the edge. I think that's why I run. Each time I go for a run I have to go to that place where it hurts a bit, and then keep going. It's therapeutic and cathartic.

While we were in Russia with the adoption, our case worker wanted to emigrate to the United States. He had a Masters Degree and spoke three languages. He had a great deal to offer our country. The emigration process for him was onerous and bordering on the impossible. He had to travel to Moscow, a day's journey by train. Wait in line to get the proper paperwork. Wait in line to submit the paperwork. Pay large sums. Wait. Hope. Dream. So to say that we need to improve the process is an understatement. However, circumventing (aka breaking) our law will not make the process any easier. Why should someone that lives a few miles south of us be able to circumvent the law and enter the country when the man in Russia has the chance of a beach vacation in Siberia of getting in? If I was poor and desperate, and decided to break the law by robbing a bank, should my economic circumstances mitigate the sentence? Without the rule of law we are not a nation.

The first limits on immigration were started in 1875, but the most restrictive quotas didn't start until 1924. However, go read 2 Ne 1:8. Lehi understood how "the promised land" could be overrun if not kept secret. Some order and control must be maintained. How much is up for debate, but certainly a chaotic free-for-all could not be good.

Just for the record, Uncle Chock and I have done the back-breaking work that illegal immigrants do. That's how I paid for my mission and college. Supply and demand economics will solve the problem. If the demand for labor is there, the supply will materialize, but the price will not be the same as for illegal workers. Because of that fact, I personally feel that the illegal immigrant is a modern-day slave. They suffer great danger. They suffer abuse. They are cheated and robbed. They are paid a percentage of what their labor is worth. They have little redress with the law because they are operating outside of it. They are a also a victim. I think we do a greater disservice to the illegal immigrant by not enforcing our law.

I do not rail against the illegal immigrant, but against the fallacious argument that indigent economic circumstances somehow nullify the importance of obeying the law.

Secure the border. Enforce existing law. Change the law through our proven process of open political debate and passage of legislation.

As always, good debate leads to effective solutions.

Brock

**I started thinking after reading your email about why we don’t just use the stimulus package money (if there is any left) to work on illegal immigration. All the money removes the illegal immigrants, jobs open up for those lacking jobs, and the economy begins to work itself out. Its more complicated than that. Part of the stimulus money could pay people lacking jobs to get into the law enforcement. The people wouldn’t be living on government help, but would actually have to work for their living. Those are the basic ideas for an idea that might have some possibilities.

On immigration...

I have lived in Mexico. I have talked my way out of having to bribe a policeman out of a ticket (if that made sense). Bending the law is a way of life there. If you can get away with it, then it's okay. It's a totally different mind set. I know many families here who came illegally because they could not get here any other way. They live here, raise their children here and don't have any intention of leaving. As long as they can find a way to come here they will do it.

What you propose, Mark, is something I have talked about for years. I have seen the poverty there; families are desperate to come here. These families pay thousands of dollars to coyotes or others to get them here. Why not just have them pay that money at the border as a type of deposit to the US? The only way we will stop illegal immigration is to make legal immigration easier than illegal immigration. If you simply crack down and make it harder, it will just jack up the price they will pay. They will continue to come. Let's put the coyotes out of business!

Having said that, allowing easier legal entry and then handing over benefits and tons of money in the form of federal welfare will strain our country to the breaking point faster than it is going already (if that's possible). We need to look back on the lessons of Ellis Island and welcome them in, then let them make it on their own. They can go back a whole lot easier than those who came from Europe. The immigrants in our past have made this country what it is. How can we turn our backs on them now? But neither can we spoon-feed them. Having seen the conditions and jobs in Mexico, I believe that the immigrants will be happy to work the fields and perform manual labor. Then if they feel the urge, they can better themselves and move up. However, the labor laws and minimum wage cannot be applied or it will make our agriculture too expensive to feed ourselves.

Let them pay. Let them in. Let them work.

Adrian

**Well said indeed. I’m going to throw in another plug for the stimulus package getting people back over the border and using the money to create a better system through which people can come legally.

Mark,

I haven't had a chance to read all of this post yet, but I really enjoyed reading about your experience hiking the Y. You expressed those feelings beautifully; I found myself nodding my head emphatically in agreement with everything you said about really pushing your limits. Then I realized that I don't do that enough because I am so afraid of failure.

I guess it's a pride thing. I love it when people admire my strengths, so I'm afraid to ever let them see my weaknesses. Sometimes I even try and hide my weaknesses from myself, which is no good because then I can't target them directly for improvement. I just need to recognize the blessings and lessons that come from just trying, even if it ends in what I would consider "failure."

By the way, I am going skydiving or paragliding after I graduate next year. You should come!

--katelyn

**I bolded a fear that I think many have. I was talking to a friend at work the other day and she said she like talking to me because I do all the thinking for her. The comment kind of bothered me and I sat back and reflected on why she said she didn’t like thinking. The number one reason was that it was in some way too painful. Thinking can be painful. We have to stare at our weaknesses and our fears and admit them without destroying our self esteem. Its hard to target them without getting hurt by ourselves or too stuck in our own problems as that we forget everyone else around us. But once we push ourselves to that point enough times, we can get comfortable approaching our hardest parts and working with the Lord to shape them. That doesn’t make it any less painful sometimes. And sometimes it can be destructive- it takes balance (like most things in life :) )

The Editor,
Mark

The Daily Honky Tonk 188th Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
188th Edition
Tuesday, July 20, 2010
Table of Contents
Going to the Edge of Ourselves
Immigration Continued
Discussion Question: On Mature Sexual Themes
Movie Reviews: Vantage Point and Inception

Going to the Edge of Ourselves- A travelogue about Randomly Hiking to the “Y”

“This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill, fifteen percent concentrated power of will, five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain”- Fort Minor- Remember the Name

As of this morning, I can leave Provo whenever I want to. No, I didn’t drop out of school . . . I climbed the “Y”. The “Y” is a classic freshman adventure, but if you come back from a mission as a freshman everyone your age has no interest in climbing the “Y” because its a boring hike that they already did five times. This morning, after biking up the mountain for a good twenty minutes I found myself next to the trail head and decided it was my turn to go.
Already exhausted from the climb up the mountain on my bike I wasn’t sure if I wanted to. I always had intended to hike it with somebody thinking it would be boring and I would feel a little sheepish climbing it alone. However, two minutes onto the path and I passed three or four people coming down the mountain alone.
Because I was in exercise mode I was pushing myself to walk up that mountain as fast as I could. As I was walking I discovered something about humanity. As humans we can get a high, an excitement from going to the edge of ourselves and our capabilities. There is something delightful about coming home from exercise exhausted with muscles trembling and sore. There is something delightful about having a schedule so full that you can’t breath. There is something rewarding about getting into a conversation knowing you might seriously hurt somebody, but that there is the potential that your words could change the course of their life. There is something exciting about reaching for something that we might not be able to get no matter how hard we try. Going to the edge of oneself is taking a risk. A person walks out onto the edge of what they think they know about themselves and have to push past the fear, the unknown. It is an exhilarating experience.
As I continued my journey a little girl stopped to sincerely warn me, as her mother smiled over her shoulder, to watch out for the baby rattlesnakes. I was hoping to see them, but I didn’t. I wanted the exhilaration that comes from the dangerous seen from a distance. On a similar note I want to sky dive someday. It would make me sick and nervous on the way up . . . But I want to “free fall out into nothing, to leave this world for a while”. I don’t think I would tell my parents before going. I don’t like making my mom nervous for my well being :). But I enjoy jumping into the unknown. Going to the edge of what I know. I think everyone does. We just all do it differently. When I was fourteen or fifteen I had never jumped from a high point into water. We were at a lake in Coeur d’Alene and the drop was only fifteen feet but I stood there for twenty minutes deciding to jump. And when I did I loved it. Like I enjoyed jumping my bike off ramps as a kid, or pushing myself to jump higher on the trampoline. Or as in high school as I enjoyed pushing myself to my physical limit in soccer, or stepping onto the stage as a lead singer for a mock boy band. Or as in college when I push myself to date and form meaningful relationships, to try all sorts of new things, and as I push myself to learn all that I can. It’s exciting.
Partway up the movie a grandfather stopped to say hi to me as he carried his granddaughter on his shoulders down the mountain. He encouragingly told me the top wasn’t that much further away. I didn’t care how much further the top was. But I realized he cared that I knew the rewards were coming and that they were worth it. And they were.
I sat down at the top of the big concrete “Y” and watched my hands tremble from the exhaustion. Then I sat back to just soak it all in. I enjoyed the squirrel that sat near me. We had a staring contest for about thirty seconds, the squirrel won :). And as I looked out I was astonished by the beauty of the clouds casting their shadow on the mountains, by cool air that brushed my face, and the enjoyment of looking down upon all of humanity (in that section of the Utah Valley).
As individuals, walking to the edge of our capabilities reveals new things. It gives us large sweeping vistas of the beautiful things in life. The journey may be hard, and require “concentrated power of will” and “fifty percent pain” when we are in the dark. But the rewards are so much more when we enter back into the light. Why face the pain and the effort? For me, when I graduated from the fifth grade, my friend Christine and I were given printed awards that designated us as “Most Likely to Succeed”. I’ve always remembered that. Because my elementary teachers believed in me, I believe in me. And I’ve come to know that my Heavenly Father believes in me. Furthermore, He believes in all His children and wants them to succeed in the long run. I hope you as my reader feel that. The Lord wants you to succeed. And if you let that one belief motivate you, you can do anything you want or at least learn trying. And ultimately, the reward will be further feelings of God’s love and his grandeur when you reach the tops of the mountains.

Immigration Continued
I received the following email from my dad:
“On Brock’s comment, I think it is well and good to talk about those coming through Ellis Island entering the country legally and contrasting that with the illegals, but part of the problem is that we have such tight controls on legal immigration that it is beyond most people’s capability to get into the country that way. During the Ellis Island years, remember, we had virtually no restrictions on immigration, no quotas, no nothing (well, there were some Chinese limits at one point). Now, it is nearly impossible to qualify. So, maybe part of the answer is to significantly liberalize the ability for people to enter legally so that they really do have a legal path to come to this country. The fact is, most Mexicans don’t.
--
Robert E. Tonkinson, Jr.”
I completely agreed with Brock as well about legally coming in through Ellis Island. My dad’s comment on making it easier to get into the country gave me some new ideas.
From my experience the Mexicans and South Americans who I knew in California came to the states for one of a few basic reasons. Most of them hoped to come for a few years and return to Mexico. They had no interest in learning the language because they wanted to come in, get some money, usually in a community where everyone speaks Spanish and go back home. Many leave behind family who they miss desperately and worry about continually. However, they get to the states and find out that in California they lose most of their salary and can only send a few dollars back. A plan that once involved a few months in the states turns into a year, and then several years, and people get stuck. They want to go back and visit, but can’t because they know they won’t be able to come back to make the money they had set out to get to provide for their family. But they still hope that day is coming. (And in truth some just get comfortable where they are at and lazy, like people living on welfare when they don’t have to)
Those who want to live in the states do not intend to live as strawberry pickers, or in the fields, or doing menial jobs. They come, they do everything legally after having waited ten years, and then they work their way up like most Americans do. They also learn the language and they are free to travel back and forth across the border as needed. But they waited for a significant portion of their lives for the minimal opportunity that they would get in.
There are others who sneak across with the intent to stay, they eventually learn English, get a lawyer and become a citizen. Their process is backwards but can be done much quicker than waiting in Mexico.
So, here would be what I propose. Make it easier for them to come in. I think the hate against illegal immigrants might be driving people to want laws to be stricter for those coming over honestly. However, if it was easier to come then those who just want to work shortly would be able to do it and might get a job legally allowing them to leave the country quicker. (I’ll make a note here that green cards are no easier to obtain than citizenship). And those who want to stay would be able to do so as well. All of these people entering the country would then be paying taxes and would not be stealing health care as they would have just as much right to it.
My only concern would be if they had all that freedom, who would work our fields?. ..I’m not trying to be racist but, I never met a white person who worked the fields- it would break your back and the whites would sue for workman’s comp. This is just one example in my mind where I see that part of the reason immigration laws aren’t enforced is how damaging it would be to the economy. California relies a lot on illegal immigrants for much of it’s agriculture. Agriculture provides a lot of money for California. Those companies would want to know that they would still have workers. Anyway, just some more things to consider.


Discussion Question: On Mature Sexual Themes
I saw a headline on Drudge Report that read: “Vaginal gel ‘slashes HIV risks’ ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10691353) and right under it “White House seeks to end criminalization of HIV transmission”( http://iowaindependent.com/39442/white-house-report-end-state-criminalization-of-hiv-transmission)
The first headline interested me as it was directed towards helping women forced into sex in Nigeria and other countries. I saw it as a hopeful message where education about abstinence for the past however many years still isn’t cutting it.
However, having this kind of protection does bring some fears to me about how it could be used in our country. What if people used the gel as an excuse for more freedom in sex. The idea saddens me. And the second headline stirs me to anger inside. How could you possibly say that HIV transmission is a good thing? Lets make people irresponsible. Lets take away the consequences by law. What comes next? You can have sex at whatever age with anyone of any age? Prostitution houses should be public and easily accessible? Pornography can line our streets and be seen on public tv as it is in Europe? In essence we should just become a Godless people who love ourselves more than others. Passing on HIV is an entirely selfish thing to do and should be considered a crime.
Its complicated once we have the knowledge of something to know what to do with it. I’m back to talking about the gel in case you are confused. In countries where alcohol is legal from an early age there is less abuse of it, but the use is more common (or at least that is what I’m told, I haven’t seen it for myself). Abortion has a couple good purposes, and if it was made legal for only those purposes then I think it should be. But if it is made legal to any woman it allows women and men to avoid the consequences of the life giving power they have been given from God. They can sell themselves into lust while avoiding most consequences. And the truth is, those who want to have an abortion find a way to do it. Just like when alcohol was banned people found more ways to abuse it and crime increased. And the White House seems to be arguing something similar about HIV. People who have it ignore the laws according to studies. The desire of the White House is the same as mine, reduce HIV infections. Yet I would not take away punishment from those who willingly hurt others. What do you think?
P.s. I’m starting to think I would like to political lobbying . . . Or at least serving on a city council in my future.

Movie Reviews
Yesterday was action movie Monday. Action movies are fun :).
Vantage Point- was a film I got from the library. Featuring Dennis Quaid, the film is about a murder of the President told from multiple points of view. Nothing spectacular but a fun film to watch.

Inception- on the other hand is brilliant. The commercials are confusing because there is too much in the film to really give anyone much of a grasp of what happens. The concept is brilliant, the action plenty, and the characters interesting. If you see any movie besides Toy Story 3 this summer go see this one, your mind will be blown. And if you want me to come see it with you . .I wouldn’t mind watching it again :).

The Editor,
MARK

The Daily Honky Tonk 187th Edition

The Daily Honky Tonk
187th Edition
Sunday July 18, 2010
10:24 PM

Table of Contexts
Passions
Letters to the Editor
Broadway Music
Other Music
Movie Reviews

Passions

I was out with a friend last night and she and I were talking about life lessons. Life lessons, you know well usually come back to dating for me. She described dating a guy who sounded very similar to me and I recognized some misguided perceptions I’ve had for quite a while. This lesson has become both important to me for dating and for my life.
I’ve told this story a million times I know, but I think it gives important context. When I was twelve I was a chunky kid who determined that if he was ever going to get married he may not ever be attractive, but he could create a personality that would be nice for girls. I knew at that time very well that girls were less likely to put looks first and could see around looks if a guy was really good.
Years later, all this preparation to be a good person has kind of become my enemy. While I mean in this in several aspects, I’ll just focus on one and that has to do with passions for life.
My friend told me that her boyfriend at the time seemed really needy. He wanted to talk all the time, he wanted to see her all the time, and he wanted didn’t seem to have anything he was doing except dating her and working. She found it annoying that he didn’t have any other passions in life. He wasn’t doing anything else. Upon hearing this, my head screamed. . .Mark, this is you, you didn’t even realize it. Your intent is not to seem needy at all . . But I suddenly saw why it came across that way. So it was time to go on a little self discovery adventure.
What is it that I do that is so similar? I cut everything else out of my life and give all my time and attention to the girl. Sounds good on one hand. . .and for really needy girls it would be very nice. . .but I don’t date needy girls . .so . . . Why do I do it?
1)Expectations. . .I thought it was what was expected. Some experience tells me it isn’t .. .and it stresses me out trying to do so. Some of my expectations were set by things people told me .. .but they were talking about parts they enjoyed later in the relationship and not in the beginning.
2)Passions as portrayed in the media. Do you know how many commercials or movies portray guys as being stuck glued to the TV and the wife rolling their eyes at them? The guy is made to look stupid and the girl then tempts him away with sex or beer. But, I also can’t name how many times I’ve listened to girls annoyed at somebody for being into sports or video games or some other obsession which lead to them ignoring the girl. I’ve listened to stories of the same thing ruining marriage. And with black and white thinking as a younger person I cut them out of my life. Sports isn’t that big in my household anyway .. So it’s not like I was really going to miss out on much. I enjoy occasionally watching a game, but I don’t care enough about games to let them get in the way of other things. I cut video games out of my life at the end of high school. I played them a lot. They were a good distraction from my stresses .. I decided I should learn to deal with my stress without having to use an escape method and just becoming non stressed. Since dating has started I found myself wrong. Many of the girls I go on dates with love sports and enjoy playing video games. **For more comments on media portrayals look at two of my movie reviews.
3)Black and white thinking about selfishness. I have a hard time putting any want before people. Its a good trait. But not in its extreme version. When I start dating, I stop writing, I don’t play or listen to as much music, I read less, I don’t go practice with improv comedy, I don’t seek out people to play sports with. I do just what I know I’m required to do, Homework, Work, Church commitments, and commitments to plays etc.
4)Passions as I envisioned them went something like this. If I was too passionate about anything then one day my wife would look at me and say Mark, you come home and you sit there and do this and that and you ignore the kids, and you don’t help in the house, and you are a bum. And I would just be that lame guy like in all the commercials, and in all those marriages where I see the wife is hurting and is frustrated and worn out. I’ve even worried that I’ll never write a book or a musical because I have this fear
5)Cutting out friends- to be honest, I have one really good guy friend right now who I can do things with. Sam, my roommate. All my other friends are girls. Or my other close guy friends are far away. Or I’ve always opted to be around girls instead of guys. . And so I don’t have any guy friends to do things with. When I’m dating I don’t necessarily feel comfortable going and hanging out with a bunch of girlfriends if I’m not with my girlfriend. So I just try and do something with my girlfriend all the time.

The consequences are this. Being around someone all the time leaves no time for the individuals in the relationship to think. It gets stressful. It doesn’t allow the other person to do the things they want, and it doesn’t allow me to do what I want. Plus it doesn’t represent how much time I spend alone doing my own thing at home. But even being home I’ve found recently I have trouble doing things for myself without feeling like I could be going and doing something more useful. This extreme takes the joy out of life and makes me unhappy. I just haven’t realized that it was the source because I thought I was acting unselfishly.

So what time is it? It’s time to take action. It’s time for me to realize that doing things that I enjoy and being passionate about them is healthy. Will they get in the way of my relationships. Maybe once in a while, but I think I’ve thought about it enough and will be sensitive enough that I won’t be like the guys in the commercial and if it occasionally gets out of hand, I’ll already know how to take a step back from the things I care about to do other things. And hopefully anyone I marry wouldn’t be afraid to tell me that I was doing it. This is part of relaxing and enjoying life. And now that I’ve written about it. I can just do it.

Letters to the Editor

Mark, Great post- it got me thinking!

I think I cheat, because my meditation typically comes when I run, it's how I get out my stress, and at the same time I feel like I accomplished something and exacted some control over myself. During my runs my mind clears, and answers to problems just come to me.

There's also a difference between mediation and analization.

This is a fabulous topic for discussion. Thanks for sharing.
Kori
**the line about the difference between meditation and analization was particularly helpful. I was talking to my friend Natalie about this and she said that she thought contemplation wasn’t analyzing but just taking things in and enjoying them. Together these two ideas have been particularly helpful. I highlighted the part on running because I felt it was a very profound thought :)

Mark,
I actually learned the "I need ME time" lesson a few weeks ago (see my blog for further details) :) but I take time to just sing, or play an instrument, or JUST sit and listen to music, or go to a concert. GO do something that you enjoy that keeps your mind activated, but isn't WORK. To me, THAT is relaxing. Hope that helps-? :)
Briana
**I’m going to refer to this in my passions article

Mark,
one step toward helping you relax more without necessarily distracting you from what you wish to accomplish - notice the little things. For example, when you're in the car, waiting, or even just sitting next to a window, look around - a lot of people have forgotten the little things and overlook them, and miss out on the joy and wonder that they can bring. If there are people around, are they busy, or do they look like they're on a stroll? Are they walking with someone, or alone. Why bother? Because there's a lot under the surface.
People are interesting, but my favorite thing to study during my "down time" is nature - the sky's wide range of colors and moods, the insects in the grass and the way they move, the sound of the wind as it moves through the leaves - do you know what I mean?
I've also found that it helps with my patience.

Hope this helps,
Belen (:
**Belen I enjoyed your comments a lot.

We need immigrants, but we need immigrants that want to come here and become citizens. Unfortunately, when millions pour illegally across our southern border with no intention of become citizens, it defeats the purpose and is also an ugly stain on our national fabric. Lawlessness seldom leads to anything good. At Ellis Island, they came in legally and started a new life as future citizens. It is an insult to those who have sacrificed everything to be US Citizens the right way, if we allow millions to "steal" their way into the same blessings. Without the rule of law, we have no country.

Brock
** I agree with these statements. . .especially about maintaining laws. . . And coming in legally is important. There isn’t an easy answer. In fact I don’t have any clue what one could do. Unfortunately where there are laws my experience (in California) was they weren’t enforced, and enforcing the laws was too costly with the amount of immigrants. However, the people who live here illegally don’t gain all the blessings. Without citizenship they are limited to a very few choice of jobs less they should be caught and they continually live in fear of being deported. They steal their way into some blessings but at a very high stress cost. Laws being upheld doesn’t bother me, people hating on immigrants does.

Mark,

I grew up in the country. I learned at an early age that there is a God. I knew this because of long walks, alone in the woods. Provo was a prison my first year of school. Then I discovered the mountains. A place of quite reflection. The mountains can be overwhelming. It is amazing to stand back and take them in. But it is more healing to me to find a place alone (a place that you think you are the first person that has been there, until you see the cigarette butt!) Look at the minute. Turn over a rock to see the patterns of the algae growing under it. Or study the vein structure of a leaf. Listen to one of those beautiful mountain streams and watch the water as it flows by. As your mind flows to nature it is easy to let go of the world. Be in that moment. After your observations of the infinitesimal. Look up, look around, take it in. Always then I feel so grateful and so renewed. It is a good time to talk to the Lord. Not so much in prayer, but just as a friend. He really is Omni-everything. So I don’t think it is disrespectful to be worshipful in prayer sometimes and be a best friend other times. I miss those times in nature. It is hard to get them now with a family and not having the same access to the woods. Even thinking of it now is comforting.

All the best.

Elizabeth

PS. Please oh please don’t spend these fun years stressed out. There is plenty of time for stress. Play, play, play. College was a blast. What a great time and place to be completely goofy! And the more you stress about finding the right girl the harder it will be. Be yourself, have fun and she will come to you.

**I woke up at four thirty in the morning the other day and went to a park a couple of blocks down and laid and staired at the mountains and the stars as they came out of the clouds. It was nice to let go and just try and breath in something without caring what was going on.

Broadway Song List
**These are a list of favorite Broadway tunes in no particular order- this list would change depending on what I’ve seen as of late . . . Or can remember.
“Along the Way”- Paul and Pasek’s Edges
“Stars”- Les Miserables
“I Dreamed a Dream”- Les Miserables
“Dancing through Life”-Wicked
“Thank Goodness” Wicked- the part where Glinda sings “I couldn’t be happier”
“If I can’t Love Her”- Beauty and the Beast
“I’ve Been”- Next to Normal
“Goodbye” Catch Me If You Can- yes there is a musical
“I’m still hurting” The Last Five Years
“I’ll Be There”- Pirate Queen
“I Miss the Mountains”- Next to Normal
‘Without Love”- Hairspray


Other Songs I like- notice how much this affected by billboard toppers
King of Anything Sarah Bareillis –I love how biting Sarah Bareillis is. She is honest and direct. “Love Song” is the same way. I love the way she rocks the piano. “Who died and made you king of anything” Plus I love her body and facial expressions in the video.
Secrets-One Republic- can somebody explain the music video to me? Favorite Line: “til all my sleeves are stained red from all the truth I’ve said”
Angels and Airwaves Young London- I love the intro- I haven’t picked up the message of this song yet.
California Girls- Katie Perry “Nothing comes close to the Golden Coast.” Minus the price, I really think California is beautiful and could be happy living there.
I Never Told You- Colbie Caillat Colbie is in my mind the female equivalent of Jack Johnson . .. Don’t take that literally. They are very different, but their music and voices are both very calming to me.
If it’s love- Train - great new music by Train after several years off the scene “the rest is just whatever”
Nothin on You- B.O.B. - I love the hypocrisy in the video and Bruno Mars is really short
Love the Way You Lie- Originally by Eminem with Rihanna .. .I like Tyler Wards remake.

Movie Reviews
Freedom Writers- good movie. A bit of language. I appreciate it because its about a teacher in a hard situation who gives her all. Unfortunately her passion does ruin her marriage. . That and her husbands lack of communication skills.
Toy Story Three- They pulled it off a third time. . .magnificent go see it.
Letters to Juliet- fun movie, way cheesy, I don’t believe in the destiny crap . .but there were some fun parts. In this one, the passion of the fiance about his business ends his relationship with the girls **this happens over and over again in chick flicks :)

The Editor,
Mark